Originally Posted by saint666

Enchantment nukes can become very powerful actually. Having caster dps could be quite good for the dervish since working in the realm of the caster would allow more room for different abilities and open up more roles rather than the limited variation of martial classes that has already been saturated.

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Ele, rit, mes and nec have similar roles in rdps, some with additional roles in support. With the exception of the ele, the other 3 classes are quite comparable and interchangeable in what the can bring to the group, they all have great rdps and support. What the ele lacks in offense it makes it up with ER, which is stepping into the boundaries of the monk.

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Simply put, you don't bring those casters primarily for their raw DPS potential (apart from the Necromancer and maybe Rit). The Mesmer's DPS potential is somewhere in the dirt along with the Ele's. The Rit gets spirits to bring it above those two and the Necromancer has minions as well as the option of acting as a strong power amplifier for physical teams.
The casters were not built (apart from perhaps the Ele) for raw damage output as that role was already taken by the Warrior.
The roles in support each caster has are different, certainly for the core ones (the Rit is a little different here). The Monk is your defender with healing and protection, the Elementalist is your ranged source of caster damage as well as more general utility, the Necromancer is your debuffer (softer, more passive shutdown) and force multiplier as well as having access to Minions with the Mesmer being your active disruption and harder shutdown.
Ether Renewal is a separate discussion really, but doesn't make the Monk redundant. Problems the Elementalist has are also a separate discussion.

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Caster damage is generally poor and the role already filled to saturation. Pushing for this turns the Dervish into a caster and won't open new roles, simply introduce a new viable-ish build that does what the Elementalist can already easily do. It won't improve anything.

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I suggested nerfing three skills that allow Warriors and Assassins to strongly use a Scythe. You attacked these suggestions quite vehemently and this is the root of this rather pained discussion. Perhaps you would like to make your own suggestions based on this more sensible premise.
I am not fully convinced Warriors outdamage Dervs when using a scythe but I'm certain Rangers don't. I can't even see how this could be the case.

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Did you read any of what I said there?
And the only time I have any issues running ZV is if there's an abnormally large number or some very powerful strips and I get a bit unlucky.

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Then what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO are we arguing about here?!
If you agree that the dervish isn't underpowered, simply that the other physicals are too strong then your initial comment to me was either utterly retarded or you've changed opinions right around without admitting it directly.

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

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Unless you take the time to ball up mobs and blow them apart with a series of nukes based on your physical output, you're simply wrong.

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

I believe that the Dervish can be made a viable caster, but not if we insist that it be interchangeable with any given DPS. Watching this conversation, though, I've repeatedly seen the idea the game is DPS and making sure the DPS stays alive. In this sort of thinking, any DPS is roughly interchangeable with any other DPS. This is true if you squint, because a dead monster is dead no matter how it got that way, but suggesting that a Mesmer and Ritualist are interchangeable, even roughly, indicates serious problems in the analysis.

If I counted correctly, nineteen out of eighty-five of the Dervish's skills cause conditions. More than half of these are AoE spells, not scythe attacks. To my knowledge, no other profession out there can bleed, blind, burn, cripple, and weaken all nearby or adjacent enemies in four skills, all the while protecting the caster and dealing minor AoE damage. The Paragon, not coincidentally, comes closest. The Dervish can't cause disease (no one but the Necromancer can), poison, cracked armor, or daze; this last one I do consider to be a real limitation if we were to view the Dervish as a condition caster.

And that's what I'm thinking about. I understand that conditions are often ignored, but, because the Dervish is already able to so easily cause them over such large areas, I believe they deserve another look and are a possible area of expansion for the Dervish as a caster. We could consider expanding the AoE, change some single-target skills into AoE (Signet of Pious Restraint), lengthening the conditions, etc. We'd take another look at Mystic Corruption and the possibility of a native daze. We might eventually be able to stack conditions as easily as a Mesmer stacks hexes.

Just a thought about what kind of caster the Dervish could be, given that it probably won't end up as plain DPS.

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

First off, some classes can use the dervish's skills better than it can (including condition-inflicting ones). Second, the conditions the dervish can inflict tend to be inferior to other methods of damage or defense. For example, a mesmer with a silencing mod, extend conditions, and technobabble can maintain daze on several monsters indefinitely. No Mystic Corruption necessary. Never mind the ever-present specter of SY, which makes most defensive conditions seem like a waste of time.

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

And that's what I'm thinking about. I understand that conditions are often ignored, but, because the Dervish is already able to so easily cause them over such large areas, I believe they deserve another look and are a possible area of expansion for the Dervish as a caster. We could consider expanding the AoE, change some single-target skills into AoE (Signet of Pious Restraint), lengthening the conditions, etc. We'd take another look at Mystic Corruption and the possibility of a native daze. We might eventually be able to stack conditions as easily as a Mesmer stacks hexes.

Just a thought about what kind of caster the Dervish could be, given that it probably won't end up as plain DPS.

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

I can only explain a core assumption of mine, that the status quo does not dictate future directions, a finite number of times before I write you off as unable (or unwilling) to understand it. You are describing the way things are now. I am talking about what the Dervish could be as a caster. If you believe it's impossible for the Dervish to be changed so that it would fulfill this role that's fine, but the objection that a Mesmer using a particular mod and PvE skill can fuel one particular condition indicates that you're not talking about the same kind of caster Dervish that I am.



The Dervish is limited to a particular range, this is true, but it isn't limited to melee. This is especially true when we consider its large number of spells.



It hasn't been demonstrated that the Dervish must always be a DPS machine. In fact, if you scroll up, you can read that I'm explicitly discussing an alternative. If you believe the alternative is impossible in an update, you'll want to make a more detailed case. To someone else, of course.

Originally Posted by Lishy

*gasp*

I sense a mysticism change! Why else would it have been changed!?

Originally Posted by vamp08

Ugh, this update is getting painful to wait for.

Originally Posted by loocas

In that light, perhaps a Mysticism enchantment could have this functionality: "Your next attack skill deals +(x...y) damage for each second this enchantment in effect. Ends when you attack." Or % damage instead. Give it something like 5 - 10 sec duration.